@synthesis Tsh Tsh! this is a community forum. We've all voiced our concerns, and until new info comes along, we should do what good communities do: support each other in these worrying times. We're not programmers, we're creators, resilient, creative, valuable, with a unique perspective, from all walks of life. Don't call your peers slackeys, idiots, taptard generators, or for that matter programmers, no matter how unsophisticated, it's just not nice.
EDIT - And if important people from Apple are reading this can i just say that synthesis is a decent chap, just worried. Cut the guy some slack, he's a very cool guy.
So lets assume Gamesalad is hit by this. All of us that have paid membership here at Gamesalad for 1 year will not just be pissed with Apple but also GS. GS may have some refunds to do?
Well, we'll still be able to develop for the web and for the Mac, MrBloggy, but I'm still confident anything can be shaken up here so that we're all still fair game to the App Store.
When I signed up this was being pushed as a method to release games for the iPhone. We wont know for sure for some time. But really what it comes down to for me is that Apple should review games and apps fully, and if they think they are too lame for the app store then refuse them.
You don't seem to get it. If you own an iPhone, Apple sold you a powerful device. It no longer works as it was advertised to work when you purchased it. Apple broke your stuff, man. It's not just *their* iPhone, it's also your iPhone, my iPhone, TShirtBooth's iPhone, MrFunkleBerry's iPhone. I don't want Apple to walk all over the GameSalad community and hundreds of other indie devs. I can't change your mind if you're okay with people walking all over you, but I am not okay with that.
I don't know where you pulled the three million dollar figure out of, but it really doesn't matter. This agreement has a chance to destroy every company putting out software like GameSalad, Unity, MonoKit, NimbleTouch etc etc... And every successful developer using these tools. These people could easily start a class action lawsuit. Money would not be a big issue. Time would also not be a big issue -- dragging a lawsuit out for 3 years would destroy those companies just as well as Apple's agreement might. Any judge worth his or her salt would certainly recognize that. In cases like that, there's often a temporary decision that's issued for the duration of the trial with the intent of protecting the interests of the parties involved.
Am I the only one more interested in contributing to a resolution that's beneficial for game developers than winning a t-shirt?
If that was your poem, please contact me at a.beke@chello.at
I would like to ask you a question and I may have an offer for you.
I didn't find an email contact on your profile, so I am forced to write here, even if I am doing it very very unwillingly.
Thanks!
---
PS.:
@TSB and QS here it is called "ligtening up the mood" on serious forums all over the internet it's called "OFF Topic" and result in deleting the post, a warning or even in a ban normally.
"@TSB and QS here it is called "ligtening up the mood" on serious forums all over the internet it's called "OFF Topic" and result in deleting the post, a warning or even in a ban normally.
Just my 2 cents."
Please use your own forums then, where you can do what you want to. Here, we want to keep it light hearted, apparently.
TShirt, I invite you to take a bite out of the nearest apple and toss it into a hill full of angry ants. See what happens.
We are not powerless here. There are a lot of consumer laws in a lot of different countries where iPhones have been sold. At least some of them (like the UK law in that article) protect the consumer so that a company can't cripple their own devices to protect their needs, if it conflicts with consumer needs. In short: If you sell me a boat, you can't tell me later on that it's not compatible with water, because you would be causing me financial damages. Look at this if you haven't yet: http://techdirt.com/articles/20100409/0913548950.shtml Sony has already lost the same exact fight.
We don't even necessarily need a lawyer, here. We need to help generate enough internet buzz to where Apple realizes that there will be costly lawsuits and many ruined relationships in their future if they don't ease up on the agreement.
RevolvingDoor: "If you own an iPhone, Apple sold you a powerful device. It no longer works as it was advertised to work when you purchased it. Apple broke your stuff, man. "
Except that section 3.3.1 doesn't affect the advertised functionality of the iPhone, in that it will continue to run Apps that have been approved for and downloaded from the App Store. Apple never promised iPhone users that they could run any app made in any framework or language - just they they could download lots of apps from Apple's store. For most iPhone users, 3.3.1 is a non-issue.
For devs, of course, it's like staring at Armageddon.
There would be a stronger position for an actionable legal argument if there had been a clause in Apple's legal terms and conditions with developers that guaranteed their access to the platform regardless of original development environment. I don't remember any. Is my recollection in err?
Wild speculation here but... I saw some stuff on WebGL and HTML5 etc. It looks to me like pretty soon one would be able to write pretty good games in a web browser. 3D type stuff, without the need for plugins.
I don't think we are quite there yet. But I think it's coming down the pipe. It will be kind of a game changer when it does happen. It will never be as fast as pure C though.
Just wild speculation on my part though. Although, i tend to be right about these things. Just my timelines tend to be wrong
Since HTML5 is still new and buzzy you probably won't see anything really awesome made with it until it's no longer buzzy and the NEXT BIG THING is buzzy.
There's been a lot of speculation that Export to HTML5 is how Adobe will eventually get content made in Flash into the App Store. (Well, made in Flash, dumped into Dreamweaver, then exported as an HTML5 web app.)
Except Apple actually advertised the use of Unity3D as an iPhone dev tool. Furthermore, they've featured many games made with 3rd party tools in the app store. There is a spreadsheet on TaoEffect of games, including games that Apple helped promote, that now suddenly violate an agreement. (link: http://www.taoeffect.com/blog/)
What makes this illegal is the fact that I could have seen an Apple endorsement of Zombieville (heck, even seen the listing in the app store -- it's Apple that puts those up, after all,) and said "Oh this is cool, I am going to go get an iPhone."
That game now violates an agreement. By extension, I would be violating a legal agreement every time I played it.
Apple sold me a device while claiming that it can do A Thing, and then it changed the rules so that I can no longer do A Thing. This is false advertising, it's damaging to consumers, it's unethical, it's bad... I don't know how else to say it.
Clearly this whole deal is causing a lot of tension, so I'd say don't worry about what anyone else thinks, arguing is not going to make a difference, and we have absolutely no control over this situation. It will be what it will be, I just wish we had firm answers.
Revolving door: Great to see you so active in the forums!
Hey, nothing wrong with a thought provoking debate. People may be a little tense, but we're all still friendly, right...?
@Tshirt: This has nothing to do with what Apple will do to existing apps. Those apps are still in violation of the TOS. I'm still violating their TOS every time I play the game. Because I have violated their TOS, my rights as an Apple customer are now severely limited.
I think that the most likely scenario if the TOS goes through unchanged is this: we will be "fine." Apple will allow GameSalad, Unity, etc etc to continue their existence as before. The troubling part is the amount of legal control they gain over us. It gives Apple the freedom to pull or reject our games on a whim, simply siting that we violate the TOS.
What's more, it will make Apple more reckless with future TOS changes. You'll never see the App store mature. Nobody but big companies will try to make high-quality games, because putting $5000 into a killer app, when another TOS change might make it illegal any time before release, simply isn't a good idea.
@ Revolvingdoor: I don't mind thought provoking debates, I was talking about some posts prior to yours
I can see where Revolving door is coming from, but Apple can, and will make decisions like this, and I've always known that there was a possibility they could pull the plug at anytime.
They are in power, they run the app store, so they unfortunately make all the decisions.
If they do decide to create a new license agreement again in the future that bans us, then it will be just that.
And trust me, they've covered all bases legally with this stuff.
If this is happening now, imagine what the future will bring?
i'm going ahead with GameSalad development. I'm not concerned about this. GameSalad games are just data files. The GameSalad engine itself is Obj-C and C++.
Any games you make with GameSalad all follow the same recipe:
1. One part standard GameSalad engine (C and Lua stuff) 2. Your game description XML (data constructs, no code) 3. Your game assets (images, sound, and music, no code)
Mix and serve.
ps
Lua is used by practically everyone in the games industry. It'd be really hard to ban it since it can't be used to directly compile and code. It's designed as a scripting language for very small, very fast systems and must be embedded within a larger C program that binds to the Apple APIs. If Lua does turn out to be a problem GS can work around that by coding the Lua bits of their engine in pure Obj-C. Either way this won't affect your game, at worst it would just push back the GameSalad 1.0 release date. Oh, and EA, Bioware, Blizzard, Activision, etc would all have problems with Lua too since they use it extensively.
Comments
"Are GameSalad users screwed by Apple's new TOS?"
"Yes"
"No"
(and no maybe or wishy-washy answers)
EDIT - And if important people from Apple are reading this can i just say that synthesis is a decent chap, just worried. Cut the guy some slack, he's a very cool guy.
By the way, I never understood the title of the thread... "Spanner" is not even a verb.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/spanner
No apostrophe in "I'm," no space after the zero, capital L in the middle of a sentence for no reason, missing capital S in "GameSalad..."
We wont know for sure for some time.
But really what it comes down to for me is that Apple should review games and apps fully, and if they think they are too lame for the app store then refuse them.
You don't seem to get it. If you own an iPhone, Apple sold you a powerful device. It no longer works as it was advertised to work when you purchased it. Apple broke your stuff, man. It's not just *their* iPhone, it's also your iPhone, my iPhone, TShirtBooth's iPhone, MrFunkleBerry's iPhone. I don't want Apple to walk all over the GameSalad community and hundreds of other indie devs. I can't change your mind if you're okay with people walking all over you, but I am not okay with that.
I don't know where you pulled the three million dollar figure out of, but it really doesn't matter. This agreement has a chance to destroy every company putting out software like GameSalad, Unity, MonoKit, NimbleTouch etc etc... And every successful developer using these tools. These people could easily start a class action lawsuit. Money would not be a big issue. Time would also not be a big issue -- dragging a lawsuit out for 3 years would destroy those companies just as well as Apple's agreement might. Any judge worth his or her salt would certainly recognize that. In cases like that, there's often a temporary decision that's issued for the duration of the trial with the intent of protecting the interests of the parties involved.
Am I the only one more interested in contributing to a resolution that's beneficial for game developers than winning a t-shirt?
testing for blockquotes...
`so thats how you do it.`
If that was your poem, please contact me at a.beke@chello.at
I would like to ask you a question and I may have an offer for you.
I didn't find an email contact on your profile, so I am forced to write here, even if I am doing it very very unwillingly.
Thanks!
---
PS.:
@TSB and QS
here it is called "ligtening up the mood" on serious forums all over the internet it's called "OFF Topic" and result in deleting the post, a warning or even in a ban normally.
Just my 2 cents.
here it is called "ligtening up the mood" on serious forums all over the internet it's called "OFF Topic" and result in deleting the post, a warning or even in a ban normally.
Just my 2 cents."
Please use your own forums then, where you can do what you want to. Here, we want to keep it light hearted, apparently.
Nice to hear from you again,
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
who here knows HTML5?
We are not powerless here. There are a lot of consumer laws in a lot of different countries where iPhones have been sold. At least some of them (like the UK law in that article) protect the consumer so that a company can't cripple their own devices to protect their needs, if it conflicts with consumer needs. In short: If you sell me a boat, you can't tell me later on that it's not compatible with water, because you would be causing me financial damages. Look at this if you haven't yet: http://techdirt.com/articles/20100409/0913548950.shtml Sony has already lost the same exact fight.
We don't even necessarily need a lawyer, here. We need to help generate enough internet buzz to where Apple realizes that there will be costly lawsuits and many ruined relationships in their future if they don't ease up on the agreement.
Except that section 3.3.1 doesn't affect the advertised functionality of the iPhone, in that it will continue to run Apps that have been approved for and downloaded from the App Store. Apple never promised iPhone users that they could run any app made in any framework or language - just they they could download lots of apps from Apple's store. For most iPhone users, 3.3.1 is a non-issue.
For devs, of course, it's like staring at Armageddon.
There would be a stronger position for an actionable legal argument if there had been a clause in Apple's legal terms and conditions with developers that guaranteed their access to the platform regardless of original development environment. I don't remember any. Is my recollection in err?
I don't think we are quite there yet. But I think it's coming down the pipe. It will be kind of a game changer when it does happen. It will never be as fast as pure C though.
Just wild speculation on my part though. Although, i tend to be right about these things. Just my timelines tend to be wrong
Since HTML5 is still new and buzzy you probably won't see anything really awesome made with it until it's no longer buzzy and the NEXT BIG THING is buzzy.
They are using HTML5 extensively in iAd btw.
Except Apple actually advertised the use of Unity3D as an iPhone dev tool. Furthermore, they've featured many games made with 3rd party tools in the app store. There is a spreadsheet on TaoEffect of games, including games that Apple helped promote, that now suddenly violate an agreement. (link: http://www.taoeffect.com/blog/)
What makes this illegal is the fact that I could have seen an Apple endorsement of Zombieville (heck, even seen the listing in the app store -- it's Apple that puts those up, after all,) and said "Oh this is cool, I am going to go get an iPhone."
That game now violates an agreement. By extension, I would be violating a legal agreement every time I played it.
Apple sold me a device while claiming that it can do A Thing, and then it changed the rules so that I can no longer do A Thing. This is false advertising, it's damaging to consumers, it's unethical, it's bad... I don't know how else to say it.
Clearly this whole deal is causing a lot of tension, so I'd say don't worry about what anyone else thinks, arguing is not going to make a difference, and we have absolutely no control over this situation. It will be what it will be, I just wish we had firm answers.
Revolving door: Great to see you so active in the forums!
Hey, nothing wrong with a thought provoking debate.
@Tshirt:
This has nothing to do with what Apple will do to existing apps. Those apps are still in violation of the TOS. I'm still violating their TOS every time I play the game. Because I have violated their TOS, my rights as an Apple customer are now severely limited.
I think that the most likely scenario if the TOS goes through unchanged is this: we will be "fine." Apple will allow GameSalad, Unity, etc etc to continue their existence as before. The troubling part is the amount of legal control they gain over us. It gives Apple the freedom to pull or reject our games on a whim, simply siting that we violate the TOS.
What's more, it will make Apple more reckless with future TOS changes. You'll never see the App store mature. Nobody but big companies will try to make high-quality games, because putting $5000 into a killer app, when another TOS change might make it illegal any time before release, simply isn't a good idea.
I know what would cheer me up.... a free t-shirt
I can see where Revolving door is coming from, but Apple can, and will make decisions like this, and I've always known that there was a possibility they could pull the plug at anytime.
They are in power, they run the app store, so they unfortunately make all the decisions.
If they do decide to create a new license agreement again in the future that bans us, then it will be just that.
And trust me, they've covered all bases legally with this stuff.
If this is happening now, imagine what the future will bring?
It's unfortunate, but it's reality.
Any games you make with GameSalad all follow the same recipe:
1. One part standard GameSalad engine (C and Lua stuff)
2. Your game description XML (data constructs, no code)
3. Your game assets (images, sound, and music, no code)
Mix and serve.
ps
Lua is used by practically everyone in the games industry. It'd be really hard to ban it since it can't be used to directly compile and code. It's designed as a scripting language for very small, very fast systems and must be embedded within a larger C program that binds to the Apple APIs. If Lua does turn out to be a problem GS can work around that by coding the Lua bits of their engine in pure Obj-C. Either way this won't affect your game, at worst it would just push back the GameSalad 1.0 release date. Oh, and EA, Bioware, Blizzard, Activision, etc would all have problems with Lua too since they use it extensively.